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I wish I'd read this blog post years ago.
I don't have any expertise whatsoever to be guiding others through this process so please don't look at this as a "how to". But what I do have is an audience, and I've found that each time I've opened up about the more personal aspects of my life and where I've struggled (such as my post a few years ago on dealing with stress), I've had a huge amount of feedback from people that have been helped by it.
Just read this. Hugely helpful to me going through the never ending stress of divorce. It had given me hope and focus. Thank you 🙏
— Ruth Cornish (@RuthACornish) March 16, 2022
Perhaps my willingness to talk openly about it has led to others coming to terms with their own similar circumstances, and that's my hope in writing this. Not to guide you through divorce, but to help you understand it.
Here's what I've learned.
This title is deliberately blunt, and I chose to run with it because it's one of the most important things I've learned throughout this process. Let me explain:
Nobody goes into a marriage expecting it to fail. You're marrying for life and when the day comes that you realise it's not going to happen, you feel like a failure. You also feel stigmatised; "I've not been able to deliver on the promise of my marriage, what will people think of me? What will my family think? My kids?" Now, I'm not religious in any way whatsoever but I'm conscious of the social expectation of marriage. I found it extremely difficult early on to talk to people about it outside my closest circle of friends, partly because I had difficulty simply finding the words to explain it and partly because to be honest, I was worried about being judged for having a failed marriage.
It took time to realise that people don't care or more specifically, they don't care about stigmatisation or judgement or most of the other emotional baggage you get caught up with. Friends care about you, of course, but the fact you've decided to dissolve a marriage really isn't their concern. Your wellbeing is their concern. Your happiness. Your children's happiness. The person caring most about the mechanics of divorce and leading separate lives was me, and that's something I had complete control over.
The exception to "nobody cares", in my experience, is family and others in your inner circle who hold onto that same stigma that dogged me early on. There may be traditional reasons for this, cultural reasons, religious reasons or just the simple sadness for a relationship that is no more. Family in particular can be complex, especially when there may be existing resentment, jealousy or as we've all experienced at one time or another, individuals who just revel in drama. They can be your greatest supporters or, if they prefer, antagonists. But that's their own emotional struggle to deal with, not yours, and a truly supportive inner circle will prioritise your wellbeing.
Where it really started to normalise for me was over the course of time as I learned how many other people had, themselves, gone through divorce. Sometimes it was much simpler happening earlier in life and without kids, but often it was much, much more complex, especially where there was financial distress or older children. Once I came to terms with the fact that the concept of a marriage falling apart is not the thing I should be worried about and I should instead focus on the logistics of the various practical challenges that presents, I became a lot more comfortable with the situation and frankly, a lot happier.
Someone I spoke with recently was married to an abusive drunk. They knew the relationship was over when they found themselves thinking how easy it would be to push their inebriated spouse down the stairs.
A friend confided in me about how their partner had physically assaulted them since the birth of their child. The kid was about to enter adulthood.
Another friend explained recently how it wasn't until their wedding night they acknowledged they were gay.
Not all stories are as dramatic; one friend is happily married with two children of their own and two their partner had in a previous marriage. Another divorced young and now lives happily with their new partner, the child they had together, their partner's ex and the child they'd had previously.
I've deliberately used gender-neutral pronouns here; it surprised me how often personal stories didn't align to the stereotypical norms of male and female behaviours. Especially in cases where there has been mental illness, alcohol dependency or drug addiction, you realise just how unique everyone's own journey is and how even though your own may feel exceptional, it's probably not.
I mention this here because as my life started to settle down, that headline kept coming back up - "everyone has their own story". As time went by and I met new people and heard new stories, it would come up over and over again in my mind. It helped me normalise my own circumstances and overcome the stigma I'd felt so much in the early days.
It's tricky when there's mutual friends, common contacts in social circles, other parents at school and all sorts of scenarios where you're going to be spending time with the same people your ex is. Whose side do they take? Who are they sympathetic to? Angry towards?
There's a temptation to inject your own views into discussions with these people but frankly, the chances of doing that in a balanced fashion in the midst of the most emotional period of your life are zilch. I know when I think back to conversations with friends who've gone through similar trauma in their own lives, I'm acutely aware that as much as I want to be there to support them, I'm only hearing half the story. One friend in particular I've spent a lot of time with is convinced their ex is actively turning their kids against them and they may very well be right, but I only hear one side of the story. Another was concerned their child had been abused whilst in their ex's care and again, I've only heard one story. But to my earlier headline, I don't care because I'm not listening to their stories so that I can play judge, I'm listening to help them get it off their chest and deal with their emotions.
What I found over the course of years was that when it comes to mutual friends, it was preferable to simply not discuss the ex. It might come up organically (which parent will the kids be with when a friend wants a play date, for example), but that's a discussion that can be had in a pure mechanical fashion without emotion. It's harder when more pointed questions are asked - "How's it going with the divorce?" - and candid, honest responses aren't always compatible with the goal of remaining neutral. Interestingly, I found that people judged bitterness towards the other party quite harshly, especially where they viewed behaviour as derogatory. "Why can't they just get over it and move on", I'd keep hearing. It feels almost trite to put it this way, but people respond well to positivity and just getting on with life, but judge negativity and bitterness quite harshly.
Giving people time and space to observe without feeling like someone is trying to influence their views is invaluable and, in my experience, led to much more support.
During the good days of my marriage, I knew my wife wanted the best for me as I did for her. After all, that's the bedrock of a relationship: that you're there to support each other and wish for nothing other than their happiness. Divorce changes that and in many cases, inverts that bedrock yet somehow your brain is still wired to want the best for them and in turn, to expect that they want the best for you.
During the divorce process, there was constant strategising about how to move matters forward and drive the formal things to a conclusion and time and time again, I'd talk to my lawyer and say "she's telling me she'd like [blah]". In this context, [blah] was normally something that had the optics of good intentions, often motherhood statements such as "desirous of an amicable outcome" or words like "fair", "kind" and "considerate". Who wouldn't want these things?! These things are all great! At one stage I relayed this messaging to him after which he paused, and then asked a very simple question:
What do her actions tell you?
Uh... something different. Opposite.
It was the "be kind" of misdirection where someone says words you naturally support (of course we all should be kind!) yet demonstrate actions to the contrary. Do you judge them on the words? Or the actions? Of course it should be the latter, but that realisation only comes once you recognise that the two don't always align.
The problem is the aforementioned brain wiring where you're conditioned to expect the other party to want the best for you and to take them at their word. It's hard to let go of the fact that your wellbeing is no longer their first priority and frankly, the inverse is also true. But that doesn't change the intention being represented so we need to move beyond judging on words and start judging on behaviour. I later heard this same sentiment expressed in a more eloquent way:
Characterise people by their actions and you will never be fooled by their words
This was another epiphany for me, and it fundamentally changed the way I viewed the situation. If I'm honest, it gave me a lot more clarity of mind; it forced me to let go of many of the emotions surrounding the divorce and instead just focus on the facts. The motherhood statements and platitudes no longer mattered, all that mattered was actions.
I read a lot to try and help me understand what was going on, particularly in the earlier days of separation. One piece I read really resonated as it helped explain how two people who were once so close can now be on totally different wavelengths and have different versions of the same events. The piece I read was about the Rashomon Effect:
The effect is named after Akira Kurosawa's 1950 film Rashomon, in which a murder is described in four contradictory ways by four witnesses. The term addresses the motives, mechanism, and occurrences of the reporting on the circumstance and addresses contested interpretations of events, the existence of disagreements regarding the evidence of events, and subjectivity versus objectivity in human perception, memory, and reporting.
Same event, different perceptions of what happened. The Rashomon Effect doesn't help explain what actually happened, rather it describes how people in a highly emotional, life-changing time of their lives can have fundamentally different views of the same circumstances. This might sound kind of clinical and detached, but it helped explain behaviour that I simply couldn't rationalise before. Recognising that people can have different perceptions of the same events that led to the separation helped me deal with the grief. But probably about a year after separating, I had an epiphany that really helped me move forward: the root cause didn't matter anyway.
It's only natural to seek out answers and, indeed, to apportion blame. I've done it, others in similar situations I've spoken to have done it and should you ever find yourself in the same place as me, you'll do it too. It's not always just blame with the other party either and I suspect there's rarely a divorce where all the fault lies purely on one side.
I found all the reasons in the world to explain why this had happened. Recent incidents, things related to money, to work, to kids and even signs that I should have picked up on right from day one of the relationship. I'm sure she did the same. But ultimately, it's inconsequential and my pinning the blame on particular things was making no difference whatsoever.
Legally, it doesn't matter either. In Australia (and in many other parts of the world), we've had the concept of No Fault Divorce since 1975. The court doesn't care who did this or who didn't do that, all they care about is that there's an irretrievable breakdown of the relationship and that either one or both of you wants the marriage annulled. That is all.
In playing back all the events over all the years, I was just reliving bad memories. It was making me angry, regretful, emotional. I wasn't longing for reconciliation and as I moved forward in my own life, I wasn't even wishing things were back where they were years ago. I was seeking answers where I wasn't going to find them, and they wouldn't change a thing today even if I did.
Stop dwelling on it and move on. I can't say I always do that, but the more I've just put my head down, looked to the future and powered forward, the better things got.
Telling the kids was the worst. In the hours beforehand, I was a mess. Inconsolable. I felt that stigma I mentioned earlier coming over me in waves as we prepared to tell our children we were breaking up the family.
Their mother was the one who told them as we all sat down together. It was pretty short and to the point, effectively boiling down to us having mutually decided to lead separate lives. The bomb was dropped, then she finished by prompting the kids for any questions they'd like to ask us. They paused, then our 9-year old son spoke up:
Can we have pizza for dinner tonight?
I smile thinking about that even now 🙂 It was a relief valve at an enormously stressful time not just because it was kinda funny given the gravitas of the news they'd just heard, but because it demonstrated that just as with the observations above about friends not caring, the kids didn't care either. They cared about being loved, supported, having their parents' attention and really, just fundamental Maslow's hierarchy of needs sort of stuff. They didn't understand the social concept of marriage, they weren't aware of the stigma I felt and frankly, if it didn't have any actual impact on their lives in any meaningful sort of way, they didn't care.
In later reading I'd learn that as far as divorces and kids go, this is the ideal time to do it. Were they to be much older (our daughter was 6 at the time), things would be harder as they became more independently minded and more aware of the social issues surrounding a marriage breakdown. But at this age and in an environment that was still civil at the time, both the news on that day and everything else I've observed in the years since has been entirely unnoteworthy.
But I also don't want to trivialise the situation with kids as I've seen things work very differently for other people, especially when teenagers are involved. I can only relay my own experiences here and acknowledge that I've been extraordinarily fortunate. Part of that good fortune has been luck due to the timing of our separation, their age and their personalities, and part of it has been good management on our behalf as parents.
What I've found most difficult to navigate is loyalty binds:
A loyalty bind in divorce is where the child does not feel allowed to love both parents. He has to side with one or the other about any number of issues, big and small. His anger, sadness, and anxiety increases as he feels pushed to choose and either choice results in the loss, or fear of loss, of the other parent. He can’t win.
When you've got two people who've decided to wind up a relationship, there's going to be flashpoints. Disagreements. Possibly legal battles. You're both angry, both convinced you're right and sometimes, certain that the other party is the devil. Now, imagine amidst the heights of that frustration a parent gives the kids some pretty unfiltered opinions about the other party - how do the kids react? Angry towards the parent being spoken harshly of due to the things they've allegedly done? Or defensive of that parent as they watch the other one unleashing on them? He can't win!
I've found this to be an extremely delicate area to navigate for two reasons:
Firstly, I've had to make sure that no matter how I've felt about the situation, I avoid negativity towards the ex in front of the kids to the fullest extent possible. Sometimes that's easy insofar as there are many discussions that simply don't need to be had with the kids (it's much better to vent to close friends and family), but other times it can be extremely difficult if it's a topic that directly impacts them (e.g., their movements over school holidays). But that burden is on us - the adults - and it's one the kids shouldn't have to bear.
Secondly, there's dealing with times where the other parent puts the kids in the very position you're trying so hard to avoid. Particularly when derogatory messaging comes home in ways that could only have come from the other party, you're left feeling defensive and wanting to set them straight with your version of the record, but now you're back at the loyalty bind problem. It's not always explicitly derogatory behaviour that creates that loyalty bind either, it can be something as minor as being emotional when the kids mention the other party or particular activities they've been involved in; "every time I talk about [thing], it makes [mum|dad] upset".
In dealing with the latter situation, I sought support from a family counsellor who gave me an example from another client that epitomises everything that is wrong with creating loyalty binds. A lady had attended with her 6-year old daughter and during the session, received a call from her lawyer related to matrimonial matters. After hanging up, she burst into tears and in an attempt to calm her, the daughter put her arms around the mother and said, "that's ok mum, I hate dad too". That story is just heartbreaking and even though it may not have been the mother's intention, her reaction drove a wedge between a child and their parent. That's a hard one but again, we're the adults, it's our responsibility to manage our emotions around these situations.
I keep coming back to what is ultimately a very simple premise: putting the kids in a situation where it creates a loyalty bind is a selfish act that prioritises your emotions over the kids' wellbeing. Whether it's deliberate or accidental, it must be avoided to the fullest extent possible.
I originally started seeing a psychologist to help me deal with stress and sustain my performance when I felt everything was getting too much for me. It quickly became clear that the bulk of my stress wasn't due to my workload, it was due to my relationship. This is where psychologists can make a big difference - cutting through the emotion and getting to the core of what's eating you.
So, I started seeing Clive. He wasn't the first psych I'd seen, but he was the first one that really resonated with me, so I made appointments to see him every couple of weeks. We'd spend an hour each time going through recent events, how they made me feel and how I'd deal with them moving forward. He made an enormously positive difference not just in terms of understanding my own emotions, but reframing situations to reduce the unnecessary stress I was feeling.
Here's a perfect example: I'd often worry about things that were really of very little consequence but would bug the hell out of me. They'd come through an email, via the kids or in a lawyer's letter. On one occasion, I unloaded the whole lot onto Clive after which he sat thoughtfully, then suggested the following:
Think of her as a drunk person in a pub throwing punches at you. It's demanding your attention, but nothing is connecting and eventually she'll tire out or sober up.
I loved that and ever since that session, I've become much more adept at separating the things that actually require my emotional input from the drunk punches.
The other exceptionally helpful guidance he gave came during a protracted legal stoush that felt like it had no end in sight:
Me: "This feels like it will never end"
Clive: "Do you know what to do next?"
Me: "Yes, I'm going to do [legal thing] then [other legal thing] then if that doesn't work, [alternating legal thing]."
Clive: "Then just follow the process."
Follow the process. Time and time again, I'd sit on the couch, pour out my heart and we'd come back again to simply following the process. Divorce paperwork - follow the process. Parenting orders - follow the process. Financial settlement - follow the process. At their essence, they were merely business deals and negotiations, they just happened to be wrapped up in multiple layers of emotions.
In a later session, there was one addition to this guidance; follow the process and sustain performance. You can't let the process sap you of energy such that you're unable to perform. You can't let it mentally or emotionally drain you, distract you from life's essentials or keep you from reaching the goal. This was the high-performance coaching I was seeking out in the first place, and it was more relevant at this juncture than ever before.
That's not to say that following the process is simple, it certainly wasn't for me, and those layers of emotions would regularly impede progress. Clive would often break it down into psychological behaviours he'd plot out on the whiteboard:
I'd rarely take notes, but I'd take photos. I'd go back through them later on in an attempt to make sense of it all. Professional help made an enormously positive difference; it helped me process everything going on in my life, understand it more objectively and ultimately, lead a happier life. Speaking of which...
Every person I spoke to who'd been through divorce and "emerged on the other side" told me the same thing - it gets better. Clive told me that from day 1, pointing out that there's a very predictable cycle we all go through:
This maps pretty closely to your classic Kübler-Ross 5 stages of grief and we recognised that I was somewhere around the righthand side of the whiteboard. It's not always movement in the one direction, indeed I was oscillating back and forth around "understanding of new normal", sometimes a couple of steps backwards towards "anger", but increasingly towards "engaging and embracing new normal". And my new normal was starting to look pretty damn good:
Let’s face it. Everyone who’s as slick as Troy and done as much for the sec community deserves a girl that fine!😂 #yesG
— .b (@dot_b) June 4, 2021
I love this comment, not because I alone somehow deserve romantic happiness, but because we all do. To inject further optimism into the end of this post, upon reflection, every single story I relayed above about friends who have gone through their own divorce struggles has resulted in new partners, new lives and new happiness. Every. Single. One. Charlotte and I got engaged on New Year's Day two years ago and married in September. Life has never been better 😊
Sometimes, life feels like a fairytale. This is now my favourite photo ever ❤️ pic.twitter.com/lspKwVVSly
— Troy Hunt (@troyhunt) December 9, 2022
One final note on this, a quote from Lao Tzu:
If you are depressed you are living in the past.
If you are anxious you are living in the future.
If you are at peace you are living in the present.
There are still "drunk punches" and occasional anxious moments, but they're increasingly fleeting and I'm at peace. I hope this post has been helpful and if you recognise yourself in this, that you reach this stage of the process quickly and peacefully.
For Cisco engineers working on Duo, having a remote-first workplace has helped them reach life goals, connect with colleagues around the world, and be intentional communicators. We understand that working remotely can be an adjustment — that’s why we’ve compiled the 10 parts of remote work that surprised our team members most and their advice for navigating the nuances. If you’re interested in being part of a remote-first workplace, check out our open positions.
Senior Engineering Leader David Rines has worked remotely for the past seven years. He’s found that Cisco’s approach to distributed teams has “enabled us to pick up the right talent, and not necessarily local talent. We are moving towards a global, follow the sun environment,” he said.
One of the aspects Rines appreciates most of this structure is getting “a widely varied set of perspectives and experiences that help build a more reliable, more robust product, which is why we’re here.”
Another benefit to having colleagues across the globe is the sharing of recipes, a perk Senior Site Reliability Engineer Bernard Ting particularly enjoys. Proactively communicating with colleagues virtually “helps you to form bonds with people from other teams. You can always learn something new about cultures elsewhere. I talk to people about food and so I’m always gathering recipes from people from all over the world,” Ting shared.
While some may fear that working remotely could lead to feelings of isolation and loneliness, a different camaraderie can flourish in the structure of our distributed teams. With colleagues across time zones, “there’s always someone there who you can reach out to help solve your problem,” Rines said.
Collaboration hours are another way Site Reliability Engineering Manager Jaya Sistla has cultivated virtual community and problem-solving. These hours are blocked off for team members to talk about what they’re working on. “The main thing is being able to ask for help so you don’t go into the rabbit hole debugging things,” Sistla said.
Ting points out that working in a distributed model allows you to really engage in virtual events and conversations. Given that the team mainly communicates through online chat, Ting has found that “forces you to see everyone as equally approachable, which has made me more comfortable reaching out to people from anywhere in the world.”
For folks sharing an office, collaboration can happen through casual chats over coffee. When facing a challenge, you can ask your neighbor for support. While ideally virtual communication could have a similar cadence and spontaneity, the logistics of remote and distributed work require intentionality and being proactive in connecting with colleagues as people and as co-workers.
When Ting first started working remotely, he felt that every meeting needed to be formal and have a business objective. By sharing his feelings with his manager, he was reassured that “socializing is a very important part of teamwork, because if you don’t have a good relationship with your colleagues you’re not going to be able to have healthy discussions, healthy conflict or be able to critique each other when the situation arises.”
Since that conversation, Ting has been more proactive about catching up with colleagues, which can include sharing a coffee over video chat. Duo’s “coffee roulette” formalizes the process as every month, employees who opt in can be randomly paired up for a quick half-hour chat focused exclusively on socializing. Ting has found being proactive about socializing virtually helpful. “It’s made me more intentional with my time and really treasure the social experience you can get,” he said.
Some folks may be concerned that without a manager observing their efforts and work ethic day in and day out, it may be harder to recognize accomplishments and challenges. Ting found that within his team “when you work on projects and in your one-on-ones with your managers, they’re always very intentional about learning what you’ve been doing and seeing what your progress is like on certain projects. I’ve been asked, ‘How do you think you can improve? What are some of the things you’ve been doing outside of the team work?’”
To cultivate cross-team collaboration and education, there are thoughtfully planned virtual lunch and learns. “We schedule training sessions and common meetings at times that are flexible for everyone. If it has to be repeated, we do it so people can comfortably attend rather than stretching themselves and attending at odd hours,” Sistla said.
For Software Engineer Nick Aspinall, an important and fun part of working remotely is keeping in touch with virtual messaging. One unique perk has been getting to create and customize emojis with team members including a few of himself in “various ridiculous states,” he said.
Connecting with colleagues on themed channels focused on personal and professional interests from coffee to pets “makes it really cool because you can meet people across different teams and still get some of the feeling of rubbing elbows that you get when you’re in the office,” Aspinall said. Participating in these virtual conversations boosts morale while also providing an endless supply of cute animal pics.
Given the multi-faceted nature of our work and the importance of consistent information sharing, having different communication channels and formats to communicate data with varying degrees of complexity is vital. Having information readily accessible, accurate and updated is particularly necessary in a field like cybersecurity.
Senior Software Engineer Mario Lopez finds that the variety of information sources contributes to an easeful remote working experience. For instance, for complex architecture decisions or detailing, Duo’s Wiki is the best source.
Software Engineer Hanna Fernandez has benefited from chat channels dedicated to design and engineering topics to “see what everyone’s up to and what thoughts people have,” she said. Sista pointed out these are great places to ask questions and open up dialogue to solve problems.
Our culture is “video-on,” meaning that it is preferred that during video meetings, as much as possible, attendees have their cameras on. Lopez loves this because “you get a bit of that personal human element.”
“We’re all people behind these screens. You definitely get some of people’s personality through text, but you get it more when you actually see them. It’s infectious when you see someone smiling. You’ve got to smile back,” he shared (while we both smiled).
When Fernandez started at Cisco, she was advised to schedule individual meetings with everyone she would be working with on every team that she joined. That suggestion is one she’s applied even virtually.
“It’s a great strategy because I already know that my team is super talented and very smart, but this way I also get to know them as humans beyond their roles,” Fernandez said. Fernandez also finds it important to check in with co-workers and ask how they’re feeling and how their time off was. “I know a lot of people hate small talk, but it’s not just small talk. I’m genuinely interested in how my co-workers are doing.”
One of Ting’s biggest goals was buying his first house in the countryside outside of London. By working remotely, Ting has flexibility in his location which allowed him to achieve his goal of buying a house and settling down with his partner, while giving their dogs the space they need to be dogs.
When transitioning from fully remote to hybrid, it’s important to recognize that there will be some shifts to get accustomed to. As the structures of remote, distributed and hybrid work evolve, it’s important to stay flexible and notice what’s possible through multiple modalities of team building. Many teams have enjoyed in-person gatherings and connecting through virtual lunches and team games when remote.
Fernandez has had multiple roles with multiple structures at Cisco. As an intern, she was fully in person and shared desk space with other interns who collaborated on full stack engineering. While working in finance IT, Fernandez was hybrid and many of her colleagues were distributed among multiple offices. The pandemic began while she was in a DevOps role, forcing her to maintain boundaries around her work time while working fully remotely. In her current role working on Duo, Fernandez is completely remote but advocates for in-person events if possible, because “humans are social creatures who want to see each other’s faces in real life once in a while.”
For Aspinall, “when we did come back to the office, there was a bit of an adjustment period where you were overstimulated from the office.” He also wanted to ensure team members who were 100% remote were fully included. Now he sees that while half his team is fully remote and the other half is hybrid, “that doesn’t stop anyone from doing anything. All of our meetings feel the same. They’re all seamless.”
If you’re interested in joining our team from wherever you are in the world, check out our open roles.
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Few security career paths are linear. For Stephanie Frankel the journey to Cisco Secure was circuitous. The Ann Arbor, Michigan native studied journalism at the University of Michigan before managing communications for the Washington Capitals and NBC Sports. But after several stints at communications agencies, she charted a new path for herself in cybersecurity. Not only has her diverse background served as a strength in her current role as senior manager for strategy and operations, but it’s also informed her management philosophy.
After doing project management and account direction at consulting agencies, Frankel was interested in honing her skills and expertise on the client side. She had heard amazing things about Duo and wanted to stay in Ann Arbor and work for a company with local roots. After interviewing, Frankel realized that “working at Duo was a cool, exciting opportunity with a really awesome group of people.”
Frankel was on the ground running working as a technical project manager in research and development overseeing the Multi-Factor Authentication, applications and mobile engineering teams despite not having worked in information security before.
Duo’s security education allowed Frankel to understand the industry and is something she values for getting more people into the cybersecurity field. At Duo and Cisco Secure, employees come from a variety of backgrounds and some don’t have much (or any) experience with cybersecurity.
Robust educational programs build knowledge about security and specific products which empower new team members to grow and learn. Every team also has a learning and development budget for employees to quench their curiosity and enhance their knowledge through courses, books or other programs Manager of Global Employee Programs Anndrea Boris shared.
“People are open to having conversations and open to ideas and ways to solve those ideas. If you have an idea of how to solve a problem, no matter whether it’s your job or not, people are open and willing to listen to you.” – Stephanie Frankel
Something Frankel also appreciates most is that ideas are valued at Duo and Cisco Secure: “Even in my first job, I would have ideas and go to my boss or our head of engineering and say, ‘Hey, I think this could be a really cool opportunity, and I think it needs this.’ People are open to having conversations and open to ideas and ways to solve those ideas. If you have an idea of how to solve a problem, no matter whether it’s your job or not, people are willing to listen to you.”
After a year, Frankel moved from engineering to marketing to run operations for Duo’s in-house brand team, leading the team through a rebrand. “The team really rallied behind this new brand and it was amazing to see their pride and hard work when sharing it,” she said. With Frankel’s leadership, the team showcased not only the new look and feel of the brand but also the customer research that went into understanding the need for the change.
“Our amazing team knew that for it to catch on internally we needed to help people understand the why. The team put together an amazing training and went around the company to help people understand the security buyer, the industry overall and our differentiators and how we could do all of this within the umbrella of Cisco,” she said.
Recognizing that she most enjoys and feels best suited for a strategic operations role, she had open conversations with her manager. “I told my boss, ‘It’s just not a great fit.’” Her manager was very supportive, and they worked through potential options. “You’ll find a lot of that at Cisco,” she said.
Now as senior manager in the Strategy and Operations Group within Cisco’s Security and Collaboration division, Frankel runs key initiatives for business operations that drive business growth. She is empowered to creatively solve problems and collaborate “with all the stakeholders within each group to move these programs forward, to understand the problems we’re looking to solve, create objectives, a program plan, and continue to track metrics and progress towards those ultimate goals,” she said.
A self-described “over communicator,” Frankel believes that as a leader, “the more you communicate and the more transparent you are, the better.” Frankel loves leading people who are experts in their fields and letting them do what they do best.
On the brand team, for example, she trusted her team’s expertise in producing stories, videos and animations to demystify Cisco’s security products.
“All I needed to do was give them the objective and the goals and they were able to come up with the solutions,” Frankel said.
She fondly remembers the boss at one of her first jobs out of college. In that job Frankel wrote press releases and wanted her boss to fully approve the final versions before sending them to the media. Once her boss told her, “Stephanie, if you keep giving it back to me, I will keep finding things to change. I trust you to know when it is ready to go.” That confidence in her so early in her career “gave me so much confidence in myself,” she said.
Frankel emulates his approach to management by recognizing that each employee has different needs in their lives, in their careers, and in how they like to receive feedback. From that boss Frankel first learned that for every piece of negative feedback, you must give four pieces of positive feedback for “someone to actually hear it because that’s how you balance things out in your mind.”
Frankel believes feedback is crucial for growth. “I don’t see how you can improve or grow without it, no matter what level of your career you’re at. Feedback shouldn’t be taken as negative, as much as it is a way for you to improve,” she said.
One of the most helpful things Frankel learned in a Cisco class for managers was the importance of asking a person if they are in a good place to receive critical feedback. “You might not be in the mindset to accept the feedback and to do something constructive with it,” she said. ”If you’re having a bad day or struggling, you could say, ‘You know what, I’m not going to be able to take it today, but let’s talk tomorrow and I’ll be in a better place to receive it.’’’
Frankel has spent the last year thriving in a role she never anticipated in an industry her college training in journalism didn’t fully prepare her for. The secret, she says, is keeping an open mind to new possibilities and a willingness to take on new challenges, even if you don’t feel 100% ready.
“A lot of it is getting real world experience and learning your way through it and knowing that there’s a lot of opportunities and a lot of people that are willing to teach you,” she said.
To pivot professionally Frankel advises not feeling pigeonholed just because you studied a particular topic or have been in a certain industry for a long time. Take what you can from where you started such as storytelling and communications skills in the case of journalism for Frankel. While trying something new may require taking a different level or type of job “sometimes it’s worth it because you have that opportunity to grow and you might find you’re happier somewhere else,” she said.
When discerning professional steps Frankel recommends having open and honest conversations with yourself and others such as mentors.
“Cisco has so many mentorship programs and so many people that are knowledgeable about a lot of things,” she said. ”Just because your current role isn’t a great fit doesn’t mean that there’s not another good fit within the corporation, or it doesn’t mean that you can’t create your own good fit.”
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How many times have you heard the old adage about how nothing in life is free:
If you're not paying for the product, you are the product
Facebook. LinkedIn. TikTok. But this isn't an internet age thing, the origins go back way further, originally being used to describe TV viewers being served ads. Sure, TV was "free" in that you don't pay to watch it (screwy UK TV licenses aside), but running a television network ain't cheap so it was (and still is) supported by advertisers paying to put their message in front of viewers. A portion of those viewers then go out and buy the goods and services they've been pitched hence becoming the "product" of TV.
But what I dislike - no, vehemently hate - is when the term is used disingenuously to imply that nobody ever does anything for free and that there is a commercial motive to every action. To bring it closer to home for my audience, there is a suggestion that those of us who create software and services must somehow be in it for the money. Our time has a value. We pay for hardware and software to build things. We pay for hosting services. If not to make money, then why would we do it?
There are many, many non-financial motives and I'm going to talk about just a few of my own. In my very first ever blog post almost 13 years ago now, I posited that it was useful to one's career to have an online identity. My blog would give me an opportunity to demonstrate over a period of time where my interests lie and one day, that may become a very useful thing. Nobody that read that first post became a "product", quite the contrary if the feedback is correct.
The first really serious commitment I made to blogging was the following year when I began the OWASP Top 10 for ASP.NET series. That was ten blog posts of many thousands of words each that took a year and a half to complete. I had the idea whilst literally standing in the shower one day thinking about the things that bugged me at work: "I'm so sick of sending developers who write code for us basic guidance on simple security things". I wanted to solve that problem, and as I started writing the series, it turned out to be useful for a whole range of people which was awesome! Did that make them the product? No, of course not, it just made them a consumer of free content.
I can't remember exactly when I put ads on my blog. I think it was around the end of 2012, and they were terrible! I made next to no money out of them and I got rid of them altogether in 2016 in favour of the sponsorship line of text you still see at the top of the page today. Did either of these make viewers "the product" in a way that they weren't when reading the same content prior to their introduction? By any reasonable measure, no, not unless you stretch reality far enough to claim that the ads consumed some of their bandwidth or device power or in some other way was detrimental such that they pivoted from being a free consumer to a monetised reader. Then that argument dies when ads rolled to sponsorship. Perhaps it could be claimed that people became the product because the very nature of sponsorship is to get a message out there which may one day convert visitors (or their employers) to customers and that's very true, but that doesn't magically pivot them from being a free consumer of content to a "product" at the moment sponsorship arrived, that's a nonsense argument.
How about ASafaWeb in 2011? Totally free and designed to solve the common problem of ASP.NET website misconfiguration. I never made a cent from that. Never planned to, never did. So why do it? Because it was fun 🙂 Seriously, I really enjoyed building that service and seeing people get value from it was enormously fulfilling. Of course nobody was the product in that case, they just consumed something for free that I enjoyed building.
Which brings me to Have I Been Pwned (HIBP), the project that's actually turned out to be super useful and is the most frequent source of the "if you're not paying for the product" bullshit argument. There were 2 very simple reasons I built that and I've given this same answer in probably a hundred interviews since 2013:
That's it. Those 2 reasons. No visions of grandeur, no expectation of a return on my time, just itches I wanted to scratch. Months later, I posed this question:
A number of people have asked for a donate button on @haveibeenpwned. What do you think? Worth donating to? Or does it come across as cheap?
— Troy Hunt (@troyhunt) March 7, 2014
Which is exactly what it looks like on face value: people appreciating the service and wanting to support what I was doing. It didn't make anyone "the product". Nor did the first commercial use of HIBP the following year make anyone a product, it didn't change their experience one little bit. The partnership with 1Password several years later is the same again; arguably, it made HIBP more useful for the masses or non-techies that had never given any consideration to a password manager.
What about Why No HTTPS? Definitely not a product either as the service itself or the people that use it. Or HTTPS is Easy? Nope, and Cloudflare certainly didn't pay me a cent for it either, they had no idea I was building it, I just got up and felt like it one day. Password Purgatory? I just want to mess with spammers, and I'm happy to spend some of my time doing that 😊 (Unless... do they become the product if their responses are used for our amusement?!) And then what must be 100+ totally free user group talks, webinars, podcasts and other things I can't even remember that by their very design, were simply intended to get information to people for free.
What gets me a bit worked up about the "you're the product" sentiment is that it implies there's an ulterior motive for any good deed. I'm dependent on a heap of goodwill for every single project I build and none of that makes me feel like "the product". I use NWebsec for a bunch of my security headers. I use Cloudflare across almost every single project (they provide services to HIBP for free) and that certainly doesn't make me a product. The footer of this blog mentions the support Ghost Pro provides me - that's awesome, I love their work! But I don't feel like a "product".
Conversely, there are many things we pay for yet we remain "the product" of by the definition referred to in this post. YouTube Premium, for example, is worth every cent but do you think you cease being "the product" once you subscribe versus when you consume the service for free? Can you imagine Google, of all companies, going "yeah, nah, we don't need to collect any data from paying subscribers, that wouldn't be cool". Netflix. Disqus. And pretty much everything else. Paying doesn't make you not the product any more than not paying makes you the product, it's just a terrible term used way too loosely and frankly, often feels insulting.
Before jumping on the "you're the product" bandwagon, consider how it makes those who simply want to build cool stuff and put it out there for free feel. Or if you're that jaded and convinced that everything is done for personal fulfilment then fine, go and give me a donation. And now you're thinking "I bet he wrote this just to get donations" so instead, go and give Let's Encrypt a donation... but then that would kinda make free certs a commercial endeavour! See how stupid this whole argument is?
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